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RIYADH: Saudi Arabia will continue negotiations with Iran to create a brighter future for both countries, the country's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman said in an interview published Wednesday.
The two countries are "permanent neighbors," the crown prince said. "We can't get rid of them and they can't get rid of us. So it's better for both of us to find a way to deal and coexist."
Crown Prince Mohammed said four talks had already taken place with the Iranian government, with more to come. "If all goes well, we will reach a good point for both countries and create a brighter future for our country and Iran."
In a lengthy interview with US magazine The Atlantic, the crown prince spoke about Saudi-US relations, the pivotal role of Islam as the foundation of the Saudi state, and the country's rejection of religious extremism. and the plans for social development and economic growth in Saudi Arabia.
Crown Prince Mohammed said Saudi Arabia has a "long and historic relationship" with the United States and aims to strengthen that relationship. "We have many benefits: political benefits, economic benefits, security benefits, defense benefits, trade benefits. It's big."
However, the crown prince has refused to interfere in Saudi Arabia's internal affairs, arguing that trying to pressure Saudi Arabia would be counterproductive.
"Pressure doesn't work," said the crown prince. "Throughout history, pressure has never worked on us. If you have the right idea, the right way of thinking, keep doing it. If it's right, people will follow. Wrong. Then people will follow their own way of thinking, and that has to be accepted."
"We respect American culture, mindset, all things American, because it's up to you. We want you to be treated the same. We want you to believe We don't agree with many things, but we still respect that."
"Whether we agree with you or not, we have no right to preach to you in America, and vice versa."
Reflecting on the importance of Islamic tenets to Saudi Arabia's culture and values, Prince Mohammed said extremists have hijacked and perverted Islam to pursue their own nefarious interests. He said Saudi Arabia was reversing the process.
However, the Crown Prince said, ``I do not use the term 'moderate Islam' because it pleases extremists and terrorists. It suggests that we are trying to change it to something new, but that is not the case."
"We are returning to the true teachings of Islam, the way of life of the prophets and the four righteous caliphs, an open and peaceful society. The Islamic soul of Saudi Arabia, We must return to our roots and to pure Islam so that our tribal and urban culture will serve the nation, nation, region and the world, and lead us to economic growth. I'm here."
As a result, Saudi Arabia has become "one of the fastest growing countries in the world," the crown prince said. The Crown Prince said: “Next year, the economy as a whole will grow by nearly 7%. Saudi Arabia is not a small country, it is a fast-growing G20 member. So where in the world is the potential now? It is in Saudi Arabia.”
Crown Prince Mohammed said such developments would be achieved in a uniquely Saudi manner while respecting Saudi Arabia's core values. "We are not trying to be like Dubai or like America," he said. "We are trying to develop based on what we have, on the economic wealth, and on the potential of the Saudi people, the Saudi culture, our background."
“Now we can see it in Saudi Arabia. We have done a lot and there is still a little more to do. ”
The full transcript of the interview is below:
Atlantic
I have been here several times since 2019. Each time it's a little different, more modern, more advanced. As we approach 2030, it is becoming like Dubai, even America. Do you think Saudi Arabia will stop being Saudi Arabia and become more like the rest of the world?
Crown Prince
We are not trying to be like Dubai or America. Based on what we have, what we have, what we have, what we have, how we tap into the potential of the Saudi people, what is the culture of Saudi Arabia, what is our background.
We want to add something new to the world. Many of our projects are unique and Saudi. For example, AlUla is unique to Saudi Arabia. No other model like this. Diriyah's project, one of the largest cultural projects in the world, is also unique. This is a Najd themed cultural heritage project. For example, the development of Jeddah's Old Town and its surroundings, which are based on the Hijaz tradition, are also unique. That's Saudi Arabia. NEOM and The Line, NEOM's main city, are also unique and made in Saudi Arabia. It's not a copy of another country. We are evolving and creating solutions that no one has ever made. For example, Qiddya Riyadh, one of the world's largest entertainment, culture and sports projects, covers an area of approximately 300 square kilometers, larger than the area of a small country. Theme parks, culture, sports elements, real estate and other mega-projects are synchronized in a way not found in Orlando or anywhere else in the world. So we try to be innovative rather than imitative. We are going to use the capital in the Public Investment Fund (PIF), the capital in the government budget, in innovative ways based on our culture and Saudi innovation.
Atlantic
Just...
Crown Prince
Give an example! Do you have similar projects? There is nothing.
Atlantic
Can Saudi Arabia modernize to the point where its Islamic component is weakened?
Crown Prince
Every country in the world is built on a set of views and beliefs. For example, America is based on views and beliefs such as democracy, freedom, a free economy, and so on. But are all democracies right? Do all democracies work well? Definitely not.
Our nation is based on a set of views and beliefs based on Islam, tribal culture, Arab culture and Saudi culture and beliefs. If it is abandoned, the country will collapse.
The question is, how do we get Saudi Arabia on the right path to development and modernization, not the wrong path? America faces the same problem. How can democracy, free markets and freedom be steered in the right direction? why does it matter? Because it can lead you in the wrong direction. Therefore, we do not take any beliefs lightly. Because it is our soul. The Holy Mosque is located in Saudi Arabia and no one can remove it. We have an eternal responsibility to the Holy Mosque and want to set our country on the right path for the Saudi people, for the region and for the whole world. To provide value to the world based on our belief in peace and coexistence.
Atlantic
But I think you'll also agree that the way moderate Islam is preached today is very different than it was in 1983 when I was talking to someone in your position.
Crown Prince
I don't use the term "moderate Islam". Because this word pleases extremists and terrorists.
Atlantic
They consider it an insult.
Crown Prince
Good news for them if we use the word. If we say “moderate Islam,” the image in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries is that we are turning Islam into something new. that's not true.
We are returning to the true teachings of Islam, the way of life of the Prophet and the four Righteous Caliphs, an open and peaceful society. They respected Christian and Jewish rule even in their territories. They taught us to respect all cultures and all religions. The teachings of the Prophet and the four caliphs were perfect. We're trying to get back to the root, the real thing. But extremists have taken over our religion and turned it into something new and different for their own benefit.
They are trying to get people to perceive Islam in their own way. And the problem is, there was no one to argue against them, no one to fight them seriously. As such, they have had the opportunity to spread all sorts of extremist views, leading to the creation of some of the most extremist terrorist groups in both the Sunni and Shiite worlds.
Atlantic
Some religious groups in the region attribute this extremism largely to the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1960s and 1970s. However, it seems certain that Saudi Arabia had a great influence. Conservatism in Saudi Arabia is real.
Atlantic
It is Wahhabism.
Atlantic
So if you want to eliminate this outside influence of the Muslim Brotherhood, that's one way to do it. But how does it deal with the extremist constituents of Saudi Arabia?
Crown Prince
The Muslim Brotherhood, or Ikhwan, played a big role in creating all this extremism. They were the bridges that led others to extremism. Talking to them, they don't look extremist. But it leads you to extremism. Osama bin Laden was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Al-Zawahiri was once a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and the leader of Daesh was once a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. So the Brotherhood is a pathway. They have had a strong influence on the emergence of extremist groups over the last few decades. But not all causes are the Muslim Brotherhood. Not only in the Islamic world, but also in the United States, there is a mix of events and events, such as the invasion of Iraq, that have inspired extremists to spread their message and gather followers. It is also true that some Saudi extremists, not the Muslim Brotherhood extremists, have played a role in this direction, especially since the 1979 Iranian revolution and the hijacking of the Holy Mosque in Mecca.
And about Wahhabism. Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab is neither a prophet nor an angel. He was just a scholar among many political and military leaders, like many who lived in the first Saudi state. The problem of the Arabian Peninsula at that time was that only Ibn Abdul Wahhab's disciples knew how to read and write, and history was written from their point of view. Ibn Abdul Wahhab's writings have been used by many extremists for their own purposes. But if Ibn Abdul Wahhab, Bin Baz, and others were alive today, they themselves would be among the first to fight these extremist and terrorist groups. Daesh will not follow any living religious figure in Saudi Arabia. When they die, they start using their words, distorting their views out of context.
Ibn Abdul Wahhab is not Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has Sunnis and Shiites, and there are four sects of Sunnis. There are different sects of Shia, and all are represented in religious committees. Today, Saudi Arabia cannot impose a sectarian view and make it the only religious view. That may have happened in some part of our history, especially with events in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. But now we are getting back on the right track. To ensure that the Islamic soul of Saudi Arabia, whether tribal or urban, contributes to the nation, people, region and the whole world and leads to economic growth, we are committed to the origin, the pure back to Islam. And that's what happened in the last five years. If you were interviewing me in 2016, you might say that I'm assuming this is just an analysis of the Saudi Crown Prince. But we did. Now in Saudi Arabia, you see it with your own eyes. Come check it out, see footage of Saudi Arabia six or seven years ago. We've done a lot and still have some work to do. And we will do our best to make them come true.
Atlantic
When we first met in Washington, talking about guardianship and the speed of change, you showed me on your phone a video of men shooting at weddings. gave me I don't know if you remember.
Crown Prince
I remember.
Atlantic
And you said, "Look, we have to go at the right speed." Don't go too fast. Because these people want too much speed. So the question is, after three years, do you feel like you're going too fast? Do you feel that you face great opposition from tribal or religious leaders?
Crown Prince:
At that time, I was asked about the democratization of Saudi Arabia, so I think I showed you the video.
Atlantic
That's right.
Crown Prince:
Saudi Arabia is a monarchy and was founded on that model. And I said that under the monarchy there is a complex structure of tribal and city monarchies, such as tribal chiefs and city leaders. So I tried to give an example of what the semi-tribal monarchy of Saudi Arabia looks like.
Atlantic
It's not good to go too fast.
Crown Prince
It's not like that. I am saying that Saudi Arabia cannot change from a monarchy to any other type of system. Saudi Arabia has been based on a monarchy for 300 years. This complex monarchical structure, a system of a thousand tribes and cities, is part of how people lived in the past, and it is also part of the continuation of Saudi Arabia and the monarchy today. There are over 5,000 members of the Al Saud family in the Saudi royal family. Changing this system would be like betraying Al Saud and betraying thousands of tribal and semi-tribal leaders in Saudi Arabia. All of these leaders have contributed to Saudi Arabia's reforms. So I don't think they are the ones who are delaying change. They are the ones who help me do more.
Atlantic
Last time, you talked about listening to the people of Saudi Arabia and exploring their willingness and concerns for change. Does that mean that you haven't completely set your goals yet? You didn't do everything you wanted to do. How long will it be until then? Also, how different is the finish line from what you planned?
crown prince
To say I can see the final goal would be to say I'm a terrible leader. The final goal is still ahead. Now I just keep running towards it, faster and faster. Set goals one after another and keep running. Our goal is to do more than any other country, faster.
atlantic magazine
But isn't there a limit? Can you do exactly the same things in this country that you can legally do in the US? To be a Muslim country, must we stop at some point?
crown prince
Do you mean socially?
Atlantic Yes, that's one.
crown prince
In Islam, there are certain actions that are forbidden to believers, and God has given specific sanctions for such actions. There are also acts for which God has not specified sanctions, and such acts are judged between man and God.
However, if you are a non-Muslim, the teachings of Islam do not apply. Non-Muslims residing in or traveling to Saudi Arabia have the right to do whatever they please and according to their beliefs, as long as it complies with the laws of the country.
That was what was done during the time of Prophet Muhammad and the four Orthodox Caliphs. No societal norms were applied to non-Muslims, whether citizens or temporary residents.
atlantic magazine
The way you speak at length about Islamic law is truly rare among Saudi leaders. The position you hold now is very modern, and it's not very common among Islamic scholars. Am I correct in thinking that from now on Saudi Arabia's leaders will have a great personal interest in Islamic law?
crown prince
In Islamic law, the head of an Islamic society is a ruler called a wali al-`amr, and the final rule is not that of a mufti (judge). The final fatwa is determined by the King. Therefore, the Mufti and the Fatwa Council are like advisors to the King and have the role of giving advice to the King. In other words, Islam teaches that the ruler sets the final fatwa and sets the contract, with the final decision being made by the King of Saudi Arabia. However, it can also be discussed. In that case, explain your point of view, present evidence, base your case on Islamic jurisprudence, adhere to the times of the Prophets and Caliphs, consult the Koran, and discuss the Hadith to make your point. After that, you have to get people to accept the idea and believe it. The King will then make a decision. If a decision is made by exercising the power of the king without going through all these processes, it will have a great impact on the people of the country.
atlantic magazine
I have heard you speak of the importance of the mutawatir hadith. For example, this level of discussion about Islamic law is not something you would normally hear from a crown prince or a king.
crown prince
That is the main reason for the division in the Muslim world. There are tens of thousands of hadiths. And most of them are baseless, and many use them as a way to justify their actions. For example, Qaeda/ISIS followers use hadiths that are very unconvincing and less than real hadiths, and hype them as their ideology.
Simply put, God and the Quran command us to follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad. During the time of Prophet Muhammad, people copied the Quran and wrote down the teachings of Prophet Muhammad. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad ordered that his teachings not be copied so that the Koran would always be the most important basis. Therefore, we must be very careful when relying on the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. They fall into three categories.
One is called mutawatir. 4 or 5 people heard it directly from the Prophet Muhammad, 2 or 3 people heard it from them, and from those 2 or 3 people 2 or 3 others documented what they heard. It has become. It's mostly very strong and we have to follow it. They are few in number and contain about 100 hadiths.
The second category is called a Hadith alone. One person heard the teaching directly from the Prophet Muhammad, another person heard it from him, and it was passed down from person to person until it was documented by one person. Or a few people heard it directly from the Prophet Muhammad, and it was passed on to one person by those two or three people. In other words, when one person intervenes in the transmission of a hadith, it is called a hadith alone and is called ahad. We need to check if the content is true, if it follows the teachings of the Koran, if it follows the teachings of the mutawatir, and if it is in the interests of the people. Depending on the result, it may or may not be used.
The third is called khabar. Some people heard it directly from the Prophet Muhammad, and then unknown people are included in the gradual transmission. These contain thousands of hadith and should not be used, but there are exceptions. When you have two options and both are very good. In that case, khabar hadith can be used if it is in the interests of the people.
This is how we identify and publish hadiths in order to educate Muslims on how to use them. This should make a huge difference. It takes time. We are currently in the final stages, and I think we will probably be able to release it to the world in another two years. This is the documentation of hadith in the right way. This is proven because people read different books without any stereotypes, without the wisdom or knowledge to scrutinize hadith traditions and compare their differences. Enough.
atlantic magazine
So the question is, why do we need a mufti if we can speak of it with such great knowledge? I think you are enough on your own.
crown prince
The Mufti's job is to provide answers to those who have questions about their concerns and interests in their daily lives. For example, if someone eats during Ramadan, what should I do about it? Is that person guilty? But the answers to those things need to be regulated. No one is allowed to randomly answer the question by saying, "I know what to do." It has to be regulated, and the people answering have to be certified by the government. As such, the goal of the IFTA Board and all those working in the field is to answer questions about people's needs.
atlantic magazine
May I go back to what you said earlier? You mentioned that the Prophet Muhammad himself was very tolerant and turned a blind eye to sin. It's all up to God to judge people's sins. But Saudi Arabia carries out executions quite frequently and has been heavily criticized for it. It also imposes mutilation and other punishments under Islamic law. Would you like to eliminate these physical punishments for people's sins?
crown prince
The death penalty has been abolished except for one category. This category is written in the Qur'an and nothing can be done about it. Since it is clearly stated in the Qur'an, even if we want to do something, we cannot do it. In other words, when someone kills someone, the family of the murdered person has the right to go to court and seek the death penalty if the perpetrator is not forgiven. Alternatively, the death penalty is also punishable when someone threatens the lives of many people. This is the teaching written in the Qur'an. Like it or not, I have no power to change it.
atlantic magazine
But it is possible to create a climate that encourages more forgiveness.
crown prince
It does. If you have the time, I can take you to all the governors, or you can go to the administrative headquarters and there's a department working on the issue. Even if the death penalty exists, it is not carried out lightly. It takes anywhere from six months to a year for the victim's family to calm down and give them time to reflect. In a significant proportion of cases, execution is suspended as a result of such mediation. We are doing our best to do so. Flogging is being completely abolished in Saudi Arabia. The only thing we are currently working towards abolishing is to ensure that there is no law and no punishment. Since there are several punishments that can be decided at the discretion of the judge, we are trying to make sure that in Saudi Arabia we can not set punishments unless they are based on the law. We are currently discussing this issue and hope to bring it to fruition in the next two to three years.
atlantic magazine
On a related note, as you are aware, the CIA has stated that you ordered the killing or detention of Mr. Khashoggi based on their investigation and conviction of the situation. What are your thoughts on that conclusion?
crown prince
Well, first of all, it hurts to see anyone being killed against their will. Therefore, even those who deserve the death penalty are treated according to the legal system and have the right to defend themselves. That incident was tragic. I wish it hadn't happened to Saudi citizens, or to anyone else in the world. It was a big institutional mistake. I did my best to correct the system and prevent such an incident from happening again. It also did what a fair government should do, and brought those involved to the investigation and to trial. The court then gave them different sentences, which they are now serving. During those times, the United States made mistakes in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo. You took the right steps and so did we.
atlantic magazine
But you said you had nothing to do with it.
crown prince
Why should I be involved? It's clear (that they weren't involved in any way).
atlantic magazine
I've said this before, but you said you were really hurt by this whole incident, the whole controversy surrounding it.
crown prince
It certainly hurt a lot. In terms of “feelings,” both I and Saudi Arabia were hurt.
atlantic magazine
Is it "emotionally"?
crown prince
We have been criticized. The anger is understandable, especially among journalists. I respect their thoughts. But we also have feelings and pain in our hearts. We feel we have not been treated fairly. For myself, I feel that human rights law did not apply to me. In Chapter 11 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I was not given that right. How often can you talk to me about human rights without treating me based on my human rights in Chapter 11? I'm having trouble understanding. It's very painful to know that we are being treated like this. But the biggest question for me is this: about 70 journalists were murdered worldwide that year. can you name them? Can you name it? Thank you very much for that. Is this really how you feel about your fellow journalists? Or is this a ruse against us and me? If that's really how you feel about fellow journalists, can you name the 70 journalists murdered that year?
atlantic magazine
Why do you think this case received so much attention?
crown prince
Because there are many who hope that today's Saudi project, Vision 2030, will fail. People can't get involved, even if they want to fail. This project will not fail. No one in the world has the power to make this project fail. You could probably slow progress by about 5%. That is the maximum hindrance, and no one can do more. I don't want to be critical, but there are some groups that wish our project to fail while having the right knowledge could create links between groups in the West and groups in the Middle East.
atlantic magazine
Do you think Mr. Khashoggi himself was also arguing against the Saudi plan with his Muslim Brotherhood claims?
crown prince
Regarding Mr. Khashoggi, I have never read the full article in either the Saudi or American newspapers. I only read daily news articles. And if there is significant news in the local, regional, or global media, I also watch it.
atlantic magazine
So you've never found him a hindrance?
I never read the full article about him.
atlantic magazine
Are you sure this will never happen again?
crown prince
We are doing our best to ensure that we have good governance and appropriate processes and procedures in place to ensure that something like this never happens again. I make it my pledge -
atlantic magazine
For example, should we be concerned about your control if another party is found?
crown prince
I hope you don't have to. I am doing my best on that. You know that we have suffered. I don't want to repeat the same thing twice. That was a big mistake. So I hope it doesn't happen again. We need to make sure that our system is fully developed and that the same mistakes will not be repeated.
atlantic magazine
I met with Mr. Khashoggi once, a few weeks before he was murdered, and asked him this. "What is the real purpose? To overthrow the House of Saud?" His answer was: "No, I think the House of Saud should rule Saudi Arabia forever." So if he was seen as an enemy when he was killed because he was in favor of the survival of the House of Saud, then there must be many others who are considered enemies as well. I realized that there wasn't. There seems to be an air of dread in this country.
crown prince
I don't think so. Had it been our way, Mr. Khashoggi wouldn't even have been in the top thousand on such a list. If we were to take such action, it would be done in a professional manner and to the person high on the list.
So why was Mr. Khashoggi murdered? That was a really big mistake. Nor have we taken such measures. We do not take illegal measures. We will take action against criminals, persons who are dangerous to Saudi Arabia, persons who have committed crimes within Saudi Arabia, and persons who are dangerous globally, in accordance with Saudi law, international law, and other foreign laws. . We have dealt with it that way in the past and will continue to do so.
atlantic magazine
More than anything else, Khashoggi's murder has soured relations with the United States. Is there anything about you that Joe Biden doesn't already know that you want him to know?
crown prince
atlantic magazine
crown prince
I don't care.
atlantic magazine
crown prince
It is he who thinks about America's interests.
atlantic magazine
What are America's interests in Saudi Arabia?
crown prince
First of all, I'm not American, so I don't know if I have the right to talk about American interests. But I think every country in the world has its main pillar of profit. economic interests and political and security interests. These are the main foundations of foreign policy in any country. How can we revitalize our economy? And so shall we assure our own security? And how do we boost economic and political ties to ensure that our country is safe, that it grows, that that allows for more investment and trade. So I think the interests for America will be like that too.
Saudi Arabia is a member of the G20. Five years ago our economy was almost the bottom of the G20. Currently, Japan ranks roughly 17th among the G20 participating countries. And we want to climb to 15th place or higher by 2030. For example, in 2021 we aim for GDP growth of 5.9% and we believe that we actually achieved 5.6% growth in 2021. It is undoubtedly one of the fastest growing countries in the world. The economy as a whole is expected to grow by around 7% next year. Saudi Arabia is not a small country, it is one of the fastest growing countries in the G20. So, which country in the world has the most potential right now? Saudi Arabia. The people of the Eastern Bloc will be very happy to miss this—
atlantic magazine
Who are the people of the Eastern Bloc?
crown prince
At the same time, you are trying to push them back. I don't understand it.
atlantic magazine
What does "push back" mean?
crown prince
Take it at its word.
atlantic magazine
I'm not sure, but let's continue. Is it unusually good relations with China?
crown prince
We have a long and historic relationship with the United States. Saudi Arabia intends to maintain and further strengthen the relationship. Saudi Arabia has many interests: political interests, economic interests, security interests, defense interests, and trade interests. they are very big. And we have a huge opportunity to boost all of this. It is also very likely that these will be revised downwards in many regions. As for Saudi Arabia, we want to strengthen these interests in all regions.
America has no right to interfere in domestic affairs. This is our Saudi problem and no one can do anything about it. If America has strong social views and values, it can win without pressure on us. Let me give you one example. Sixty or seventy years ago, we abolished slavery not because of pressure. It was because of good influences from foreign countries. Saudi citizens are studying abroad, and American, European and other foreign companies are making inroads into Saudi Arabia. We were strongly influenced by them. We realized that slavery was wrong, we thought it shouldn't continue, and over time it changed and was abolished.
Applying pressure has no effect. Historically, pressure has never been effective against our country. If you have the right idea and the right idea, you should stick to it. If it's the right thing, people will follow. If it is wrong, people will follow their way of thinking. And you have to accept that yourself. For example, Saudi Arabia respects American culture and ways of thinking, as well as everything that is American, because that is the freedom of Americans. We would like to be treated the same way from America. We stand against many American ideas, but we still respect them.
Whether we are for or against America, we have no right to admonish America. The reverse is also true. I don't think Saudi Arabia has reached the social standards it is aiming for. Still, we aim to develop in areas where the Saudi people have confidence, based on our culture and beliefs.
atlantic magazine
Let's get back to China.
crown prince
Saudi Arabia is one of the fastest growing countries. Japan has two of the world's top 10 funds. It is one of the countries with the highest cash reserves in the world. Saudi Arabia can supply 12% of the world's oil. Saudi Arabia is located between the three main straits of Suez, Hormuz and Bab El-Mandeb and borders the Red Sea and Arabian Gulf, which carry 27% of the world's trading vessels. Saudi Arabia's total investment in America is $8,000 trillion. China has invested less than $1,000 trillion to date. However, it can be seen that China is experiencing rapid growth. American companies are turning their attention to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is home to more than 300,000 Americans, including Americans of Saudi Arabian descent, and that number is growing every day. The benefits are clear from this as well. It is up to America to succeed or fail in Saudi Arabia.
atlantic magazine
However, acknowledging the inability of the United States to intervene in Saudi Arabia's internal affairs—
crown prince
In fact, putting pressure on our beliefs only makes us more repulsive.
atlantic magazine
However, the United States judges whether an ally is a safe and long-term alliance according to whether the ally pursues policies that are similar to American ideology and interests. Therefore, when we see rapid economic growth unrelated to political liberalization or economic growth related to moves against political liberalization, we cannot help but regard it as similar to China or Russia. prize. is not it?
crown prince
That's not true. For example, in Saudi Arabia, do you think social development is going backwards or forwards? Think about what happened in the last five years, what is happening now, and what will happen next year. . Social development is progressing steadily. You don't need to be an expert to know this. You can find this out by doing your own research on the Internet, or by spending a short time in Saudi Arabia. Just ask the locals. Ask any of the 33 million locals living in Saudi Arabia, including about 20 million Saudis, and they'll tell you the same thing. So we are socially heading in the right direction. Even if we end up falling short of 100% of American social standards, we're on the right track. Social progress will land somewhere around 70 to 80% of US standards. My view is that we're at 50% right now and have 20-30% more room to move forward. It will never reach 100% because of the beliefs unique to Saudi Arabia. This is not my problem. This is the problem of the people of Saudi Arabia. And it is my duty to respect and fight for the beliefs of Saudi Arabia and my own as a Saudi citizen.
atlantic magazine
On the issue of women's rights, His Royal Highness sometimes seems surprised that Americans don't appreciate Saudi Arabia more.
Crown Prince Our country isn't doing it to get a reputation, so I don't care. As Saudis, it's what we do for ourselves. If you put the effort into the right perspective – well, I appreciate it. It's up to you whether or not you look.
atlantic magazine
Is Saudi Arabia's future a constitutional monarchy?
crown prince
No, a constitutional monarchy doesn't work. Saudi Arabia is based on a pure monarchy, with a complex monarchical structure underneath. There are tribes, cities, and the Saudi royal family and people that I represent, and the King protects their interests as the leader of this structure. Out of the Saudi population of 20 million, the population of Saudi citizens is between 13 and 14 million. We cannot make a coup against our 14 million people.
The Atlantic
Have you ever been fascinated by the idea of democracy or a constitutional monarchy?
crown prince
Of course it does. There are many attractive ideas. Democracy is attractive, constitutional monarchy is also attractive. However, which one to adopt depends on the location, method, and background. US democracy is interesting. You paved the way for the world's largest GDP, created a great nation, and provided the whole world with many great things. But it was designed and built on its own terms until it kicked out Britain and united the United States. Political systems, economic ideas, and social beliefs design and evolve in ways that work best for them. For example, if you look back at the United States 100 years ago, the social beliefs of that time would seem absurd. Even for us in Saudi Arabia, it seems silly. But beliefs have evolved and changed.
Saudi Arabia is not an absolute monarchy that His Majesty the King wakes up tomorrow and can change at will. There is a proper way to run a nation, and the constitution clearly states the separation of powers. The executive branch, which is led by His Majesty the Prime Minister. But the other two are not led by His Majesty Himself, but by someone He appoints. Institutions, processes and procedures exist. Examples of policy-making processes include: We wanted to allow women to drive in 2015. However, it didn't happen until 2017. This shows that we have carried out our work in accordance with the Constitution in front of the people. If we run the state improperly, like pitching a tent, it means the whole economy will collapse, no one will invest in Saudi Arabia, and even the Saudi people won't believe us. It cannot be run properly. Such is the way of Gaddafi in Libya.
Crown Prince:
The Saudi royal family has existed as a ruling family 600 years ago, predating the Second Diriyah. The clan established Saudi Arabia 300 years ago, collapsed for 7 years and then returned, then collapsed and then restored for 10 years, and so on. So we are learning many lessons. We have evolved, and so have our systems. Each generation operates in a system based on its own system of separation of powers. A new king, a new crown prince, will not undermine this institutional pillar. Why Saudi Arabia is now part of the G20, accounts for 12% of global oil demand, has the world's second largest proven oil reserves and holds two of the world's largest sovereign wealth funds Because, like Americans for the last 300 years, each generation has been able to continue building institutions on top of the previous, investing in the future, and continuing to evolve.
atlantic magazine
Some people in Saudi Arabia say that the number of royals increases with each generation, and that eventually there will be too many and some will lose their royal titles. Do you think it is possible?
Crown Prince:
Speak to someone who says so.
atlantic magazine
I know the claims of those who say so.
Crown Prince: There is no blue blood in Saudi Arabia. Our royal family exists to serve the people. We are part of the people. For example, my mother is not from a royal family. She comes from a tribe with nearly 1 million people across the country, mainly Ajman and Yam. We royals marry and merge with non-royals. We royals live here, we grew up here and we are part of the Arabian Peninsula. We have been ruling cities as Banu Hanifa since recorded history, even before the beginning of Islam. Then, although the timing is unknown, he established the first Diriyah, 600 years ago he established the second Diriyah, and 300 years ago he established Saudi Arabia. In other words, we are part of the people. Therefore, the royal family has no special rights that they can exercise over their citizens. If the royal family crosses the red line, they will be punished like everyone else in Saudi Arabia. If you commit a crime, you will be punished and the law will apply just like any other citizen. If you're royalty, it's just a respectable title.
atlantic magazine
Let's talk about the Ritz-Carlton case. This caused controversy, partly because a luxury hotel was used as a prison. On the other hand, Graeme said something interesting. “I could have used a prison, but I used a luxury hotel,” he said.
crown prince
That's right. What happened at the Ritz-Carlton was not to arrest them, but to give them two options. One is to be treated completely according to the law. So the prosecution was making a list of charges. Another way is negotiation. As a result, almost 95% of people chose the negotiation route. I mean, they weren't criminals at that point, so they couldn't be put in jail. They agreed to stay at the Ritz-Carlton for negotiations, and the deal was closed. If I remember correctly, I think we were almost 90% done with the negotiations. Those who refused to negotiate the rest filed a lawsuit under Saudi law. And a good percentage were proven innocent through negotiation and trial.
atlantic magazine
So the role of the Ritz-Carlton wasn't to eliminate rivals?
crown prince
In the first place, there is no rival that needs to be packed into the Ritz-Carlton. How do we get rid of people who have no power in the first place?
Purely just trying to stop a big problem in Saudi Arabia. A large percentage of the budget is spent on corruption. We cannot increase non-oil GDP by 5.6 times or increase foreign investment in Saudi Arabia by 50% in 2021 if corruption continues, and we cannot afford to have a competent You can't have ministers or other important people work for the government 24/7. That cannot happen if Saudi Arabia is riddled with corruption.
atlantic magazine
How did you come up with this idea?
crown prince
I didn't come up with the idea. One of King Salman's demands at the beginning of 2015 was to 'end corruption'. During 2015-2017, the government began collecting and preparing documents and discussing what the best course of action would be. Then His Majesty took action.
atlantic magazine
Do you think this was helpful?
crown prince
Of course. First, it was a strong signal. At the time, some thought that Saudi Arabia was only going to catch big whales, the big, corrupt ones. But in 2019-2020, I think it was understood that even if you only stole $100, you would pay the price. Many people have made this mistake.
atlantic magazine
Let's talk about Qatar for a minute. Your Highness is in a very different position now than it was just a few months ago.
crown prince
It's like having a fight between relatives.
atlantic magazine
So it's a family quarrel. Are you done with the quarrel?
crown prince
It was definitely a sibling rivalry. And you know, they will definitely move on and we will be best friends. The GCC countries have a common political system. We share the same political views about 90% of the time. We share security risks, economic challenges, opportunities, and societies and their structures.
So, as GCC countries, we are like one country, and that is what motivates us to establish the GCC and work together - because working together will ensure our security. , the success of economic planning will be guaranteed and the political challenge will be successfully overcome. Of course there are some differences. Our role is to strengthen stakes and bridge differences. And that has been the case throughout the history of the two countries.
atlantic magazine
Some Saudis believe that this was a kind of interstate Cold War. They feared what would happen to them and their families if they spoke in favor of Qatar. How would such a person feel a friendly attitude, as if the relationship had suddenly been repaired? I think it's a big change.
crown prince
I don't want to talk negatively. I've already gotten over it. Today, our country has an incredible relationship with Qatar. Sheikh Tamim is a great person and a great teacher. So do other GCC leaders. Our purpose is to build a bright future. And we are on better terms now than ever before in history.
atlantic magazine
The other big question, of course, is whether you think you have a good relationship with Iran. This is not an internal quarrel as Iran is not part of the GCC.
crown prince
Iran is a neighbor. Eternal neighbors. We cannot drive them out and they cannot drive us out. So it's better for each other to find a way to solve the problem and coexist. Four rounds of negotiations have been held so far. Saudi Arabia welcomes what Iranian leaders have said. From now on, Japan plans to continue negotiations and consider the details. If successful, we will achieve results that are beneficial to both countries and create a brighter future for our country and Iran.
atlantic magazine
Let me ask you a different question. Now is clearly the time for Saudi Arabia to bring great promise for the future, but is it also a time of great danger?
crown prince
What are the dangers?
atlantic magazine
Danger of political unrest, danger of power severance. According to many of your entourage, if the Crown Prince does not succeed, the Arab Islamic Emir will do it, or else it could lead to great tragedy.
crown prince
Yes. Certainly it is the King's and my duty to ensure that it does not become a matter for the King or for myself personally. We have brought profound change to Saudi Arabia. We have learned from the mistakes of each generation, watched carefully, and made sure not to repeat them. No matter what happens, projects in Saudi Arabia must continue. Also, the succession to the throne should be peaceful and should continue. Over the last 100 years, succession to the throne has been peaceful. If the king dies, the crown prince will become the king, and a new crown prince will be born, hoping that the king will live a long life.
atlantic magazine
People we've talked to say that if Vision 2030 doesn't work out, there will be geopolitical tragedy in Saudi Arabia.
crown prince
I can't say anything about that. I don't want to think about that. We just want to think about how to push things forward, make progress, and produce results.
atlantic magazine
There seems to have been a change in the rules of loyalty in Hayat al-Bay'a, which means that after the sons of Abdulaziz became monarchs, the crown prince would come out of the same line as king. It means you can't.
crown prince
That's right. So, for example, I cannot choose Khalid as Crown Prince.
atlantic magazine
I see. Do your children do the same?
crown prince
According to Council of Loyalty laws, you must choose from a different lineage.
atlantic magazine
How do you decide when the time comes?
crown prince
We definitely can't talk about that here. This is one of those topics that we are not allowed to talk about, and it is to be discussed only among us royals, between the King, myself and Hayat al-Bay'a's 34 family members. I can't say anything about these topics for the life of me.
atlantic magazine
Do you think there were other ways to implement these reforms without taking the drastic steps you've taken, such as the Ritz-Carlton case? That is, at least not in a way that would lead to public dissent from the public. Couldn't it have been implemented in a more open and liberal way?
crown prince
I don't want to discuss what I've done here again, but what we did in Saudi Arabia is the only way to make it happen
atlantic magazine
When we talked before, you talked about how to get a grip on the situation in the country, and you mentioned your interest in social media.How much time do you spend on Twitter, Snapchat, etc.?
crown prince
I try not to look at them on weekends. From 2009 to early 2018, I was checking them all the time and rarely took weekends off. It would have been nice to have a weekend off once every two months. Thanks to that, I gained a lot of weight and was feeling sick. But since 2018, I've been taking weekends off. As people, governments, and all things stabilized, planning began to take hold, and day-to-day operations began to normalize. That's why I switched to taking vacations on weekends. If I hadn't, I would have collapsed by now. I work all day on weekdays. I spend 10 minutes, maximum 20 minutes on social media every day.
atlantic magazine
But you also read Twitter, right?
crown prince
I'm watching everything on Twitter and Instagram. I want my media team to know that I am constantly searching for myself. I also read Apple News. Having all these newspaper articles in one application is a big deal, isn't it? Surprise. Thank you very much. I read Apple News and read newspapers in Saudi Arabia and other countries. You spend about 20 minutes on social media and about 30 minutes on other media. I mostly read while having breakfast with my family. TV, iPad and breakfast are all in progress at the same time. Do two or three things at once while spending time with your family. Read the news, look through them –
atlantic magazine
What would you like to see?
Kota
I try to watch things in a different world from myself, such as movies and series. For example, "House of Cards".
atlantic magazine
Do you feel like you are working?
crown prince
When I watch it, I start thinking about work. "Foundation" is interesting. This is a new series, but it's really, really fun. For example, "Game of Thrones" is good.
atlantic magazine
“Game of Thrones” is also a bit closer to work.
crown prince
It's more like fantasy or science fiction.
atlantic magazine
Do you have a favorite character from 'Game of Thrones'?
crown prince
No, not really. There are a lot of interesting characters, though. they are all very interesting. That's why we have such interesting plots and discussions. Really funny. However, what I want to see is something that is far from reality.
atlantic magazine
What kind of music do you listen to?
crown prince
I don't like modern Arabic music. Some are good, but mostly the older music is better. I also like listening to music from different countries.
atlantic magazine
You seem to be enjoying Western entertainment in ways that were unthinkable 15 years ago.
crown prince
They are part of life. We want talented people to come to Saudi Arabia, we want Saudi multi-talented people to stay in the country, we want Saudi investors to stay in the country, we want foreign investors to come to Saudi Arabia, And if you want to reach 100 million tourists in 2030 (actually, 6 million tourists in 2016 and nearly 17.5 million in 2019), provide them with all the software and hardware. need to do it. Software is needed for any event, be it sports, culture or music, while hardware is needed for projects such as hotels and theme parks. We must ensure that the goals of tourism, sports and culture are achieved by bringing in the best of the best. We need to have everything we need so that they reach 10-15% of the Saudi gross national product by 2030.
atlantic magazine
Do religious leaders disagree with music?
crown prince
Yes, I am chanting. We argue and argue about music. Again, back to Islamic teachings, music is a subject of debate in Islam. Opinions are divided even among Muslims, and we all know that. Islamic scriptures enshrine the rule that some of the restrictions can be removed if necessary, provided that there is consensus among Muslims.
atlantic magazine
Can the restrictions be eliminated by necessity?
crown prince
Yes, so if I bring down the unemployment rate and create 1 million jobs in Saudi Arabia through tourism, that means we keep $30 billion out of Saudi Arabia, most of which stays in Saudi Arabia. If we do that, the Saudi people will not have to go abroad to work as much as they used to, and I have to make that happen. They either go looking for work outside Saudi Arabia. So our third option is to choose a lesser sin than a greater one.